Meeting 2018 01 13

Attendance:

Chair - Bryan
Arch - Tom
Content - Gwen
PR - Paul
Observer - Several Team members and general users

Summary:

PCGen is still an active project with an influx of old and new team members
Java is still the prefered language because a re-write will take a large chunk of time
Get Code team back up and running and implement Tom's Formula system
Migrate server from Anestis to Stefan
Start recruitment drive for Data, Code, Webmasters, Architecture, & Documentation
Clean up and update documentation on contributing code and data, setting up dev environment

"Raw Log"

[09:06] <Bryan> Yeah - let's get started
[09:06] <Bryan> Let me grab the agenda from the meeting announcement
[09:06] == Strato [535b3d8a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.91.61.138] has joined #pcgen
[09:07] <Bryan> 1) Current PCGen Status - Are we still active or is it time to retire the project?
[09:07] <Tom[Arch_SB]> df
[09:07] <Gwen> I know the first issue we face is that there has been very little support of the project as a whole.
[09:07] <Bryan> PCGen has been around for a long time.... 17+ years if my math is right.
[09:08] <[OGL]Nylanfs> 20
[09:08] <[OGL]Nylanfs> You first released in aug 1998 :)
[09:08] <@Zaister> I'm sorry that I have been inactive recently - my job demand a lot more time than previously, but I still hope to keep contributing
[09:08] <Bryan> Really??? Oh boy...
[09:08] <Tom[Arch_SB]> :)
[09:08] <Bryan> It's come a long way since I first posted it on ENWorld
[09:08] == Strato_ [535b3d8a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.91.61.138] has joined #pcgen
[09:09] <Bryan> A *lot* of people have contributed to it and made it *way* better than I could have ever on my own
[09:09] <Bryan> I still use it for my own campaigns and clearly lots of other people do too
[09:09] <karianna> I'm also constrained (as I foolishly took on the CEO role at my company), but have started a new D&D group with my Chief Scientist as a member and he's also willing to chip in a little.
[09:09] <Gwen> Personally, I see our biggest need as recruitment of volunteers, both CODE and DATA.
[09:10] <Bryan> To be active, we need people involved in each of the categories
[09:10] <[OGL]Nylanfs> We got quite a bit of responses on the FB posts about it. Most were positive about keeping it running
[09:10] <@Zaister> I can still work on both code and data
[09:10] <Bryan> I think that having made the issue known that we need help, people have responded (myself included).
[09:10] <Bryan> So it sounds like a resounding yes, let's remain active.
[09:11] <karianna> There I can help for sure (Java recruitment), but we'll need to improve the CONTRIBUTING.md and wiki docs so that new coders know what parts of hte code base are legacy (don't touch) and what parts are new (along with a guide on how to contribute to that newness)
[09:11] <Gwen> I'm happy to teach new data monkeys, if we can drum a few up who will last longer than a month ot so.
[09:11] <@Zaister> I'M all for it
[09:11] <Bryan> Karianna - very good points.
[09:11] == Strato [535b3d8a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.91.61.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
[09:11] <Bryan> I just got reinvolved in the coding and it was a large hurdle to get to the point where I could debug/commit
[09:11] <karianna> I'm willing to Pair with Tom and other coders to write those docs (I'm effectively a new developer to the project now)
[09:11] <Bryan> That hurdle has to be lowered/removed.
[09:12] <@Zaister> yeah it's difficult to get in
[09:12] <Bryan> Karianna - Andrew was very helpful, so you might pair with him.
[09:12] <Bryan> If you could do that, let's improve that documentation as a high priority.
[09:12] <karianna> Right, and the complexity is mostly needed because we're doing some formal methods of computer science graph modelling here amongst other things.
[09:12] <karianna> Oh and LST is a turing complete language :-O
[09:12] <@Zaister> cool
[09:12] <Avilay> i going to be rather busy too for next 3 years as i be doing a double phd. but on sunday's i can get some time to work on pcgen and my other project
[09:13] <Bryan> All in favor of PCGen remaining active, say Aye
[09:13] <karianna> Aye!
[09:13] <@Zaister> Aye
[09:13] <Gwen> Aye!
[09:13] <rfinch> Aye!
[09:13] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Aye
[09:13] <Avilay> definitely a YES
[09:13] <Bryan> All opposed say Nay
[09:14] <Tom[Arch_SB]> I'm Aye as well, just didn't type fast enough :P
[09:14] <Avilay> bryan wants to retire. :p
[09:14] <Bryan> Congatulations, the Ayes have it, so PCGen will remain active. :)
[09:14] <Avilay> though i c++ coder camp, definitely not java
[09:14] <@Zaister> good
[09:14] <Bryan> 2) If #1 is Active, then restructure discussions and recruiting coders (Java or next gen C++/C#) OR retire the project and restart with new Language and Open Source License (LPGL is a bit restrictive, and was thought to be only for libraries according to others)
[09:15] <Bryan> So is there any appetite for re-writing the project in a different language? This would be a massive effort.
[09:15] <Tom[Arch_SB]> I really don't think language is the issue
[09:15] <@Zaister> Restarting would certainly be interesting and would bring in opportunities for cleanup we'd not have otherwise
[09:15] <Bryan> Tom, I agree.
[09:16] <@Zaister> Java has the platform mobility advantage
[09:16] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Right, but with volunteers only this could take a LOG time
[09:16] <Tom[Arch_SB]> @Zaister... not sure. If we really want a "hard fork" so to speak, we could just delete the code we don't like and fix what is then missing
[09:16] <Tom[Arch_SB]> doesn't require dumping the language to do that
[09:16] <@Zaister> however, Java keeps being problematic with HiDPI monitors
[09:16] <Tom[Arch_SB]> (and I'm not advising that, just observing)
[09:16] <karianna> That's all fixed in 9+
[09:16] <karianna> That's all fixed in 9+ (monitor issues)
[09:16] <Bryan> Restarting, even in the same language, would be a huge step back in functionality that would take a long time to catch up to where PCGen is now.
[09:17] <@Zaister> oh, cool
[09:17] <[OGL]Nylanfs> That's fixed if we redo the gui in JavaFX
[09:17] <Tom[Arch_SB]> So that is one gap we have
[09:17] <Gwen> Personally, I think a new language would be ideal, especially if it offers mobile options, BUT it should be a longer-term project. Fix what we have for now, while we develop in a newer language
[09:17] <karianna> I've been involved in massive re-writes before and it almost never ends well
[09:17] <Tom[Arch_SB]> UI design has never been an area I've coded
[09:17] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Well, not well anyway ;)
[09:17] <@Zaister> we could really use app suppport these days
[09:17] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I think there's an issue with Swing and 9+
[09:18] <@Zaister> put ypour csheet on your mobile device, active temp bonuses on the fly etc
[09:18] <@Zaister> that would be awesome
[09:18] <[OGL]Nylanfs> There's a couple of indepentant app's thar import pcgen files or output
[09:18] <@Zaister> yeah but probably static
[09:18] == Luigi [beeccb44@gateway/web/freenode/ip.190.236.203.68] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[09:18] <rfinch> They do not allow for applying temp bonuses however, you need to export a copy of the sheet with them on and switch, its cludgey
[09:18] <karianna> So Swing is no longer supported by Oracle (e.g. they won't fix or enhance it). That said OpenFX / JavaFX is not necessarily well supported either (by a major vendor).
[09:19] <Bryan> Zaister - that sounds like a separate app.
[09:19] <@Zaister> yeah
[09:19] <Tom[Arch_SB]> @Zaister - I think it's an open question whether there is enough need for overlap with the core code... yea, what Bryan just typed
[09:19] <Bryan> I think PCGen itself needs to be focused on the PC
[09:19] <@Zaister> so it would be advantageous to use a code base that couls be used for mobile devices somehow
[09:19] <Bryan> And we can have someone who is interested write an app for that functionality
[09:19] <karianna> One option is that if the API is well defined enough we can use a JSON Binding/Parsing Lib like Jackson and an embedded web server like Jetty/Tomcat and Voila we could build a browser based UI for PCGen that can run from a desktop
[09:19] <@Zaister> ah good idea
[09:19] <Bryan> Karianna - excellent idea
[09:20] <Gwen> PC focus is what I'm planning for the next several source. LITE versions that only include the info for "official" PC races.
[09:20] <karianna> Browser based will be an easier skill set to recruit for and we could then also HTML5 app it for mobile and run PCGen as a service
[09:20] <karianna> grand ideas.
[09:21] <Bryan> Does anyone have any questions or comments before we vote on whether or not to rewrite in another language?
[09:21] <Avilay> concern: how to make ui for tiny screen, when we work with huge amount of information, and normally have pcgen window maxed at hd resolutions
[09:21] <karianna> I think completing Tom's excellent work on formula and CDOM etc comes first though
[09:21] <@Zaister> yes
[09:21] <Gwen> Would the costs be higher for a browser-based version?
[09:21] <Tom[Arch_SB]> define cost
[09:21] <karianna> Avilay - progressive disclousre
[09:22] <Bryan> Gwen, what costs are you referring to?
[09:22] <Gwen> Bandwidth, server space, etc?
[09:22] <Avilay> definitely have 2 sets of ui, one for mobile and one for hd screens
[09:22] <Tom[Arch_SB]> probably more disk space
[09:23] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Also if it were a service how would homebrew be handled?
[09:23] <Tom[Arch_SB]> but I don't know enough to ballpark the difference
[09:23] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Not sure this is a service as in online
[09:23] <karianna> Nylanfs - upload your homebrew (with your user account)
[09:23] <Bryan> This agenda item is 2-fold. Do we maintain/fix the existing code base (java) or rewrite (either in java or another language)
[09:23] <Tom[Arch_SB]> I think karianna was proposing we use the browser but it targets a local web server
[09:23] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Bryan, hold on one sec
[09:23] <karianna> And Tom is correct, local user desktop browser first
[09:24] <karianna> PCGen as a Service much later on
[09:24] <Gwen> OR, are we talking about PCGen being a program that runs locally, but displays in a browser?
[09:24] <karianna> Gwen - yes
[09:24] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Ahh okay got it
[09:24] <@Zaister> SAS would be problematic as we would have to offer it as a free service
[09:24] <Gwen> Sorry, took me a second.
[09:24] <karianna> No problem - I explained it poorly
[09:25] == JOhn [4cd99f59@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.217.159.89] has joined #pcgen
[09:25] <Tom[Arch_SB]> ok, I think that clears it up enough, thanks for the pause Bryan
[09:25] <@Zaister> ok
[09:25] == JOhn has changed nick to Guest51542
[09:25] <Avilay> homebrew on webserver based apps is going to be challenging
[09:25] <Bryan> The question I'd like to pose is whether or not we want to maintain or abandon the current code-base.
[09:25] <Bryan> In the short-term.
[09:26] <karianna> It's a trick we use for jClarity. We write the server/core code in Java, define the API in Java and auto generate a Javascript API via Jackson and various Java EE or Spring annotations. Then the browser just thinks it's talkin to a Javascript backend
[09:26] <Gwen> What benefits specifically would a local run/browser displayed version?
[09:26] <Bryan> Long-term is a different animal.
[09:26] <karianna> Bryan - I'd keep what we have
[09:26] <@Zaister> I think so too
[09:26] <karianna> Bryan - I'd keep what we have but document how to work in it and as Tom suggested on anotehr thread, start deleting the deprecated stuff
[09:26] <karianna> There's 20 years of history in that code, very hard to reproduce that konwledge again
[09:26] <Bryan> Ok - so all in favor of keeping our current code-base, say Aye
[09:27] <Tom[Arch_SB]> same, but I'll need to learn from karianna here - outside my historical experience working with web UI
[09:27] <@Zaister> migrating in place to newer stuff
[09:27] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Aye
[09:27] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Aye
[09:27] <karianna> Aye
[09:27] <Gwen> aye
[09:27] <@Zaister> Aye
[09:27] <Bryan> All opposed say Nay
[09:27] <Bryan> Ok - so we keep the current code base, and Karianna's suggestion to delete deprecated code is excellent
[09:28] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Can we delve into that for a minute?
[09:28] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Yep, rip and fix what breaks. :)
[09:28] <Bryan> Moving to a service based system can be on a future agenda
[09:28] <karianna> If we move to Java 9 then we can use it's new deprecation system
[09:28] <@Zaister> sounds good
[09:28] <Tom[Arch_SB]> So on the deprecation, right now if we rip any of it out, things break
[09:28] <karianna> Tom - yep, can you re outline what you said in the mail thread a few days ago?
[09:29] <@Zaister> is there an openjdk for Java 9 yet?
[09:29] <Tom[Arch_SB]> and we dont' always know what those things are (the deprecated code isn't 100% code coverage
[09:29] <karianna> Zaister - yes
[09:29] <@Zaister> good
[09:29] <karianna> Zaister - I run the build farm for it :-)
[09:29] <Tom[Arch_SB]> So any ripping involves replacing or we don't have working code
[09:29] <@Zaister> ah :)
[09:29] <@Zaister> karianna: I'm on Gentoo linux so I'll have to build it
[09:29] <karianna> Tom - right, that's where the new deprecation system in Java 9 is super useful
[09:30] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Up to this point, for the last probably 6 years anyway, we have kept one branch - always working code, no major fork with work
[09:30] <Tom[Arch_SB]> So if that's going to change, it should be conscious
[09:30] <karianna> you can annotate things as "We have a known good replacement", "This is obsolete", "This will be removed next release" so on and so forth
[09:30] <@Zaister> cool
[09:30] <karianna> Tom - I think we can still work on one branch
[09:31] <karianna> Tom - I think we can still work on one pcgen canonical branch, as long as folks keep to the practice of brancjing locally and PR'ing from there
[09:31] <Tom[Arch_SB]> @karianna okay, we'll have to talk on that, most of our stuff is replacement at a very high level - so will be interesting to learn how to tag stuff and how useful it would be
[09:31] <Bryan> That's implementation details - let's stick to big picture items here
[09:31] <@Zaister> yeah
[09:31] <karianna> yep
[09:31] <Tom[Arch_SB]> ok
[09:31] <Bryan> I have to leave in 30 minutes, so I want to push things along :)
[09:31] <Bryan> The next item Andrew had was team restructuring
[09:32] <Bryan> Clearly the teams had become depleted, but the call for help has had some good success
[09:32] <Bryan> So who are the data monkeys and their leadership?
[09:32] <karianna> Gwen?
[09:32] <@Zaister> I thing Doug is the leader
[09:32] <Avilay> oki. so no migration from java
[09:33] <Avilay> i continue lurker in the shadows watching :)
[09:33] <Bryan> Avilay - correct, we're sticking with the current code base
[09:33] <Gwen> I'm Data Second
[09:33] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Andrew, Gwen, Regan, And a few others
[09:34] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I'd have to check the data commits
[09:34] <@Zaister> I do data too
[09:34] <Bryan> It sounds like data is fairly active. Would you agree Gwen?
[09:34] <Tom[Arch_SB]> I'm not sure I always know the real names vs the userids :)
[09:34] <Gwen> Yes.
[09:34] <Bryan> Tom - I sure don't know real names either!
[09:35] <Bryan> Does anyone think the data team needs restructuring?
[09:35] <Gwen> This week I finished Bestiary 4, Familiar Folio, and am almost done with a LITE version of Monster Codex
[09:35] <Bryan> I'm impressed! Thanks for all your effort!
[09:35] <@Zaister> cool
[09:36] <[OGL]Nylanfs> The data team will always have the highest amount of turn over
[09:36] <Gwen> I had 2 weeks off of work....
[09:36] <Avilay> i wish with java coders the best in updating pcgen
[09:37] <Bryan> How many people here can be active on data, even if its just intermittent?
[09:37] <@Zaister> here
[09:37] <[OGL]Nylanfs> So keeping Andrew and lead (telling the monkeys what's needed) and Gwen picking up the odd pieces and user support in Hipchat has worked really well
[09:37] <@Zaister> sounds good
[09:37] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I'm been having a hard time conceptually with data since we started using categories :(
[09:37] <Bryan> We need more than Andrew and Gwen. Zaister can help. anyone else?
[09:38] <Bryan> Sounds like a documentation issue, Nylanfs
[09:38] <sethj11> i'd prefer to work on code, but i can learn data instead if that's needed
[09:38] <Bryan> sethj11 - we'll circle back on that after we talk code team
[09:39] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Bryan there are other data folks that just may not be here
[09:39] <karianna> There seem to be a lot of data PR's - I'd argue it's pretty good progress
[09:39] <Tom[Arch_SB]> What @karianna said
[09:39] <Bryan> I'd like anyone who is willing to help with data to contact Andrew Maitland on HipChat/email/etc
[09:39] <Gwen> I was wondering if we could add a recruitment ad to the download pages or to a PCGen loadscreen? We used it for years and didn't realize it was all volunteer until a couple years ago.
[09:39] <karianna> The docs not being updated is a concern for me though - that LST documentation was a jewel in hte crown of PCGen
[09:39] <Bryan> Lets talk documentation
[09:39] <karianna> Gwen - great idea
[09:40] <Bryan> As Karianna said, documentation is *very* important
[09:40] <@Zaister> Sp we'd need to collect the changes and then update the docs. I could do that
[09:40] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Yea Regan isn't here, there's at least two others that are fairly active that Ican't think of at the moment
[09:40] <Bryan> And as Nylanfs indirectly said, it's important not just for users, but for coders and data monkeys as well
[09:40] <Bryan> Do we have any formal documentation monkeys?
[09:40] <Gwen> My 2 cents.... I use the LST Tag Index almost daily and it's a bit arcane and VERY out of date.
[09:41] <@Zaister> I think Eric ist still lited as the doc monkey
[09:41] <@Zaister> *listed
[09:41] <Bryan> Any doc monkeys here?
[09:41] <[OGL]Nylanfs> There isn't anybody actively working on docs
[09:41] <@Zaister> I've done docs
[09:41] <[OGL]Nylanfs> currently
[09:41] <Bryan> Zaister - looks like you're nominated
[09:41] <@Zaister> heh
[09:42] <Bryan> Zaister - we need documentation for categories and update the out-of-date LST syntax
[09:42] <Bryan> Gwen and data monkeys, please inform Zaister of any incorrect or incomplete LST documentation
[09:42] <@Zaister> with categories you mean for ability objects?
[09:42] <[OGL]Nylanfs> LiaungYip did have some good ideas on how to redo the documentation
[09:42] <Bryan> Zaister - how do you prefer to be contacted?
[09:42] <@Zaister> hipchat is probably easiest
[09:42] <Bryan> Zaister - yeah categories on the ability objects
[09:43] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Bryan - the data monkeys can do that, but there is another place to start
[09:43] <karianna> I used to do docs, my issue is that I'm not familiar with the LST stuff anymore to update that side of things
[09:43] <Tom[Arch_SB]> When we converted to JIRA, there is a specific workflow for creating tokens that impact data
[09:43] <@Zaister> I'm usually online here too though
[09:43] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Each of those has a state "documentation required" or some such... so any of the NEWTAG-X entries in that state mean doc updates are required
[09:43] == Strato_ [535b3d8a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.91.61.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
[09:43] <Bryan> Ok - Zaister, do you have access to the PCGen JIRA?
[09:43] <@Zaister> sure
[09:44] <Bryan> Tickets can be created/tracked there.
[09:44] <@Zaister> Bryan: I've been using that for years
[09:44] <Bryan> Gwen and others - do you know how to create the tickets to track badly documented LST tokens?
[09:44] <Gwen> So we use DOCUMENTATION in JIRA to alert @Zaister of LST doc issues?
[09:44] <Gwen> Yes
[09:44] <@Zaister> good
[09:45] <Gwen> Well, I do. Not sure about others, but I can teach them if need be.
[09:45] <Bryan> Okay - so Zaister is in charge of documentation. Thanks for your willingness to help!
[09:45] <@Zaister> Gwen: if you can, put the teaching on the wiki
[09:45] <Bryan> I can't understate how important and crucial documentation is!
[09:45] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I remember the first documentation you made for PCGen. :)
[09:45] <Bryan> Gwen and others, as we come across documentation needs, create a ticket so Zaister knows what needs to be done and it can be tracked.
[09:46] <Gwen> OK. I can do that! I'll get together with Andrew and set up a section to teach.
[09:46] <Bryan> Nylanfs - no one needs to be reminded of that... :D
[09:46] <@Zaister> cool
[09:46] <Bryan> Lets try to recruit help for Zaister so we don't burn out a single monkey.
[09:46] <Bryan> On to the code team
[09:47] <Bryan> Tom - you're Code SB, are you willing and able to remain in charge of code?
[09:47] <Tom[Arch_SB]> y
[09:47] <@Zaister> Code is now merged with Arch, right?
[09:47] <karianna> I think it should be yes
[09:47] <Tom[Arch_SB]> I think that would be a good change yes
[09:48] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Arch can be a 2nd under Code just like Content has different 2nds
[09:48] <@Zaister> yes
[09:48] <Bryan> So we want a Code SB and an Arch SB?
[09:48] <Tom[Arch_SB]> No
[09:48] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Code SB
[09:48] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Arch 2nd
[09:48] <Tom[Arch_SB]> and Code 2nd
[09:48] <Tom[Arch_SB]> or some such
[09:48] <Bryan> Ah
[09:48] <Tom[Arch_SB]> if we have enough folks to cover those
[09:49] <Tom[Arch_SB]> which means my nick is wrong ... ;)
[09:49] <Bryan> So do you want to be Code SB or Arch 2nd?
[09:49] == Tom[Arch_SB] has changed nick to Tom[Code_SB]
[09:49] <@Zaister> I'm still available for code
[09:49] <Bryan> lol
[09:49] <Tom[Code_SB]> Code SB
[09:49] <Bryan> Okay - that answers that :)
[09:49] <Bryan> Karianna - any chance you could be Arch 2nd?
[09:50] <Bryan> Who all can help with coding? I'm getting involved there again.
[09:50] <karianna> I assume we want developer guide documentation to be GitHub based?
[09:50] <karianna> starting with CONTRiBUTING.md?
[09:50] <Bryan> Karianna - yes
[09:51] <@Zaister> we also have the wiki
[09:51] <Tom[Code_SB]> Yea, there is stuff under Architecture and Code on the wiki
[09:51] <Tom[Code_SB]> and reading the developer meeting logs would be useful for folks
[09:51] <Tom[Code_SB]> I think a lot of where we are/where we are going is there and we need to decide if it's worth rewriting that or just pointing to the log
[09:51] <@Zaister> I think we maintain the wiki and point there from GitHub
[09:52] <Avilay> i can give input on design (non-java), which would be little it seems from the wiki content i read
[09:52] <Bryan> we can get into the specifics of roles, but let's stick to who-is-on-what-team for now
[09:53] <Bryan> I have to leave in about 8 minutes... so let's nail down who is on the code team
[09:53] <Bryan> you guys can continue the discussions after I leave...
[09:53] <@Zaister> I'd like to keep being on there
[09:53] <sethj11> I'd like to be on code team, though by wiki standards I'm like sub-lemur. Plus I'm learning Java.
[09:54] <Bryan> I have a former co-worker who is willing to help as well with coding
[09:54] <Tom[Code_SB]> @Avilay a lot of the arch stuff is really not code specific
[09:54] <Tom[Code_SB]> but it does require understanding the concepts of what we need to do
[09:54] <karianna> hello?
[09:54] <Bryan> sethj11 - I'd like us to get the code to a place where a new java coder can make sense of the code
[09:54] <Tom[Code_SB]> so there is opportunity there as well that is independent of code
[09:54] <Bryan> Hi Harianna
[09:54] <Bryan> I mean, Karianna...
[09:55] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Kar, you mean based around submitting and using Github, as opposed to keeping the guide IN github?
[09:55] <Avilay> @tom, that is what i referring to. the non-coding content i can work with
[09:56] <Tom[Code_SB]> okay, we can find time to talk - nice to have someone to bounce ideas/concerns off of
[09:57] <Avilay> yep. i rather long time lurker in hipchat.
[09:57] <Bryan> In any event, it seems that Andrew's concern was Tom was the only code monkey for quite some time.
[09:57] <@Zaister> yeah as i said i war rather inactive for the last year
[09:57] <@Zaister> *was
[09:58] <Bryan> So the code team was in danger of becoming inactive, based solely on what time Tom had to offer (this is just volunteer effort!)
[09:58] <Bryan> So now we have some new people who can help, which is great.
[09:58] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Yes, with active code the data will largely sort itself out. :)
[09:58] <Bryan> Karianna, if you could pair with Andrew and Tom to get new developer documentation put together, that would be tremendously important
[09:58] == karianna [97e4f0e4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.228.240.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
[09:59] <Bryan> as we want to recruit more people and get them active without turning them off due to the difficulty of getting an env set up
[09:59] <Bryan> We lost Karianna...
[09:59] <@Zaister> Kar seem to have technical problems
[09:59] <Bryan> Anyway - Tom, can you reach out to Karianna on the documentation for new developers? I had a lot of problems and Andrew was able to talk me through them.
[10:00] <Tom[Code_SB]> yep
[10:00] <Bryan> Other developers might have just given up, especially for a volunteer project.
[10:00] <Bryan> Cool.
[10:00] == karianna [~karianna@97e4f0e4.skybroadband.com] has joined #pcgen
[10:00] <Bryan> That's all the time I have. Thanks again everyone for all your effort and interest in PCGen!
[10:00] <[OGL]Nylanfs> We want the entry as easy as possible, just like a pitcher plant
[10:01] <Avilay> wb karianna
[10:01] <@Zaister> Thanks fo moderating!
[10:01] <Bryan> Karianna - reach out to Tom and Andrew to help with the new-developer-documentation
[10:01] <Gwen> It sounds like our biggest hurdle in ALL the teams is recruitment. @Nylanfs can you handle that and, if so, what support/assistance do you need?
[10:01] <karianna> Hmm, I missed the last 6 mins :-/, is there an archive view?
[10:01] <Bryan> And if we can find some doc monkeys to help Zaister, that would be awesome.
[10:01] == distant-scholar [ac066da2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.172.6.109.162] has joined #pcgen
[10:01] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I have the log
[10:01] <Bryan> People can be on more than one team (for those who want to help with data and code and documentation or some combination)
[10:02] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Hiya Doug
[10:02] <Bryan> I just should not ever have anything to do with documentation.
[10:02] <distant-scholar> Hello, each.
[10:02] <[OGL]Nylanfs> heh
[10:02] <@Zaister> Bryan I've been "full stack" on PCGen for several years :)
[10:02] <Bryan> Thanks again everyone!
[10:02] <Bryan> @Zaister - awesome! I'll stick to code only...
[10:02] <@Zaister> :)
[10:02] <karianna> Thanks all - nice to see the renewed interest and support
[10:02] <Avilay> thanx for coming bryan
[10:03] <Bryan> You can keep discussing but I need to bow out. bye!
[10:03] == karianna [~karianna@97e4f0e4.skybroadband.com]
[10:03] == realname : Martijn Verburg
[10:03] == channels : #pcgen
[10:03] == server : adams.freenode.net [Budapest, HU, EU]
[10:03] == End of WHOIS
[10:03] <Bryan> I'll leave myself logged in so I can read what was said...
[10:03] <Bryan> afk
[10:03] <[OGL]Nylanfs> So we need people for data, documentation, & code
[10:04] <[OGL]Nylanfs> We also need to move the server.
[10:04] <Avilay> <---- architecture/design stuff (no coding)
[10:04] <Gwen> I'd also like some folks to help test what is being produced. No coding or programming experience needed!!
[10:05] <Tom[Code_SB]> I think the server move needs to be high priority
[10:05] <[OGL]Nylanfs> we have enough monthly donations come in that I think we can afford to pay for what we need
[10:05] <Avilay> i always have the latest develop package
[10:05] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Arch we need the people to already be familiar with the guts and not new volunteers
[10:06] <Tom[Code_SB]> @Nylanfs not always
[10:06] <[OGL]Nylanfs> at least that's how percieve it
[10:06] <Tom[Code_SB]> "guts" is relative
[10:06] <Tom[Code_SB]> Some of it is very conceptual software design work
[10:06] <karianna> The server is on Anesitis’s hosting provider right?
[10:06] <Tom[Code_SB]> I have these 16 requirements - which of the tradeoffs do we make architecturally
[10:06] <Gwen> An aside.... Any donors that want data, like an ability, monster, etc... I'd be happy to hook them up. They support us, we should support them!
[10:06] <Avilay> oki. no hassle then. remove me then
[10:06] <Tom[Code_SB]> @karianna yes
[10:07] <Tom[Code_SB]> Avilay, don't think you need to be removed
[10:07] <Tom[Code_SB]> Let's talk before you make those decisions
[10:07] <Tom[Code_SB]> so you can have a sense of what the issues are and what you need to know
[10:08] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Mostly I was thinking that the arch person needs to be familiar with where we were and where we are going, which somebody new might not be familiar with
[10:09] <Avilay> anyway. i busy with my own c++ pc manager project, just means i spend more time on it, and follow design concepts, etc of pcgen and use what can work for my project to solve my custom campaigns i play in
[10:09] <Gwen> Oh! @Tom!! Andrew was discussing a move towards a more "agnostic" architechture.
[10:09] == Rfinch-mob [2ed0086f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.208.8.111] has joined #pcgen
[10:09] <Tom[Code_SB]> It can be really useful to have someone who doesn't know the guts and thus asks questions
[10:09] <Tom[Code_SB]> since there is no assumption they can have about what it does today
[10:10] <Tom[Code_SB]> @Gwen, not sure what that means...
[10:10] <karianna> Zaister - were you volunteering to take over the server? I forget.
[10:10] <@Zaister> Yes I was, but I'm not sure I can get it all to run on my own
[10:10] <[OGL]Nylanfs> He was, but I think needed the requirements of the server from Anestis?
[10:10] <Gwen> He was saying it shouldn't be d20 based. That it should be able to handle a wider assortment of games.
[10:10] <@Zaister> The old server uses CPanel
[10:10] <Tom[Code_SB]> Right
[10:11] <Tom[Code_SB]> yes, I agree. I have systems I'd like to run in PCGen that I can't today
[10:11] <Tom[Code_SB]> but it's "one step at a time"
[10:11] <Tom[Code_SB]> @Zaister we can move one item at a time - did you get my instructions on what Jenkins needed?
[10:11] <Gwen> I agree, but wanted to be sure that the Arch team is looking in that direction as they move forward.
[10:11] <@Zaister> Tom: I think I have them somewhere, yes, but I haven't acted on them
[10:12] <Tom[Code_SB]> @Gwen The new formula system gets pretty "agnostic" already...
[10:12] <Tom[Code_SB]> The UI then becomes the constraint
[10:12] <Tom[Code_SB]> Which is why a UI focus will be needed once we manage to rip out the old formula and export systems
[10:12] <Tom[Code_SB]> I have ideas there, just held close to the vest so as to not set anyone's expectations it will come soon
[10:13] <karianna> Zaister - what wuold you be hosting on? Hetzner?
[10:13] <[OGL]Nylanfs> We get between $5-20ish USD per month, which could be increased if we put out more calls for donating
[10:13] <Tom[Code_SB]> What @karianna has talked about with the web UI would help a lot, and ... let's just say it's likely to work really well along the direction I was thinking we needed to go
[10:13] <Gwen> No problem. Just trying to give Andrew a voice here. I only JUST understand the "agnostic" engine concept.
[10:13] <@Zaister> karianna yes that is my hoster
[10:14] <karianna> OK, we use them at jClarity - I like them
[10:14] <karianna> If you’re happy providing me ssh access then I could help you with various migrations?
[10:14] <karianna> I’m a fan of pairing on these things
[10:14] <PapaDRB> exit
[10:14] <karianna> My Chief Scientist (john) is also a bit of a devops guru
[10:14] == PapaDRB [~Papa-DRB@pool-100-40-193-73.pghkny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~]
[10:14] <@Zaister> yes, why not
[10:14] <karianna> so he cna likely help
[10:15] == Grimthorpe [522eb8a2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.46.184.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
[10:15] <karianna> Cool - do you have a box already setup or do we need to get one provisioned?
[10:16] <@Zaister> basically I have two servers thre, an older one a nd a newer one. I've moved most of the stuff, ecept mail to my newer server, and so the older one could be used for PCGen I thought
[10:16] <karianna> Cool, what are the specs? And is it backed up :-D
[10:16] <@Zaister> I can dig them out, and it's not yet backed up :)
[10:18] <karianna> OK, let me know what the specs are and how much the backup will cost (IIRC Hetzner has a fairly crude facility for this, but we should enable it)
[10:18] <karianna> You’re German timezone?
[10:18] <@Zaister> yes
[10:18] <sethj11> I need to bow out - where should I keep an eye out for any code monkey updates? I've got the wiki and the hipchat bookmarked already.
[10:18] <Tom[Code_SB]> are you on the dev list?
[10:19] <sethj11> not sure
[10:19] <Tom[Code_SB]> That provides a level of persistence HipChat doesn't so things may end up there as well
[10:19] <karianna> Zaister: Cool, I’m UK (although will be New Zealand for 3 weeks starting on the 18th), but perhaps we can start this week? Can you do during the day at all?
[10:19] <Tom[Code_SB]> pcgen_developers Yahoo group
[10:19] <sethj11> okay, i'll join before the end of the day and keep an eye out there
[10:19] <@Zaister> karianna yes that shoudlnt be a problem
[10:19] <@Zaister> the old server is a VQ12
[10:20] <@Zaister> Single core, 1GB Ram, 40 GB disk
[10:20] <karianna> Hmm, OK I’m afraid that’s going to struggle to host PCGen reqs
[10:20] <@Zaister> yeah i was afraid that could be the case
[10:20] <karianna> JIRA will eat that alive by itself!
[10:20] <@Zaister> oh
[10:20] <Tom[Code_SB]> we use JIRA hosted by Atlassian
[10:21] <@Zaister> arenÄt we in the cloud with jira
[10:21] <karianna> That’s good to know
[10:21] <karianna> So what actually needs shifting?
[10:21] <karianna> website?
[10:21] <Tom[Code_SB]> Wiki
[10:21] <Tom[Code_SB]> build
[10:21] <Tom[Code_SB]> the build will suck up that 1 GB pretty quick
[10:21] <karianna> Yah build will kill it
[10:21] <@Zaister> Well I moved off that server because I host several mediawikis
[10:22] <@Zaister> Ok then we'll need another solution
[10:22] <karianna> Do we know what the current server is?
[10:22] <karianna> I assume only Anestis knows
[10:23] <karianna> I wonder if Hetzner takes Paypal as well
[10:23] <sethj11> i'm trying to join the yahoo group, but there seems to be an issue getting some content? I'll have to figure it out later. I'm out - thanks all and see you later!
[10:23] <@Zaister> karianna I think so
[10:23] == sethj11 [4915e9f2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.73.21.233.242] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[10:24] <@Zaister> however you have to pay manually each month then
[10:24] <karianna> OK, I’ll ping anestis and see what he’s currently running
[10:25] <Tom[Code_SB]> For the moment, even if we could just get the libraries up and running on that VQ12 it would let me shut down my Amazon image
[10:25] <Avilay> i impressed that small server has served well over the years :)
[10:25] == Rfinch-mob [2ed0086f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.208.8.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
[10:25] <Tom[Code_SB]> it can support that, since I'm running on even less than that on the current VM
[10:26] <@Zaister> I'll check your instructions to see if I can get that to run
[10:26] <Tom[Code_SB]> cool
[10:26] <Tom[Code_SB]> Okay, I'm going AFK as well... thanks all
[10:27] <@Zaister> I'll use one of my parked domains for that for now
[10:27] <@Zaister> have a nice weekend
[10:28] <karianna> Tom - quickly before you go, why can’t those libs go to Maven Central?
[10:28] <karianna> Sorry didn’t word that well but hopefully you get the gist :-)
[10:29] <karianna> I’ll ping him later on thiat :-)
[10:29] <@Zaister> ok
[10:31] <[OGL]Nylanfs> So looks like we have everything discussed that we had planned? :)
[10:31] <Gwen> I'd like to bring up something that my husband just reminded me of. Our web presence is a bit splintered. The wiki, forums, FB, download locations, etc.... They don't seem to have a lot of links to each other or are solidly in most user's awareness.
[10:32] <@Zaister> that's true
[10:32] <Gwen> If folks don't know about these resources, they can't use them.
[10:32] <karianna> Cool, I’ll head off now as well - I’ve dropped tom a note on the developers list and anestis a note on the BoD list and Tom and I are going to try to resolve hte PND issue with Eitan in the next few days, then we can move to Java 9 (Tom and I will sort that) and then I can start the doc exercise with Tom (for developers)
[10:32] <karianna> Gwen - you’re totally right
[10:33] <karianna> Is that something you, your Husband and I can go through on a video call?
[10:33] <Gwen> Can we look at recruiting a sort of webmaster to tighten this up??
[10:33] <@Zaister> PND?
[10:33] <karianna> I used to be that person, I can probably do that again
[10:33] <karianna> Zaister - PMD
[10:33] <@Zaister> ah
[10:34] <karianna> I upgraded to 6.0.0 (needed for Java 9) but it’s a massive change and so it’s breaking hte build by default (we need to re do the ruleset)
[10:34] <Gwen> Not at the moment. We're about to head to the movies. The local theater is running a Sensory Friendly showing, so kids with autism don't have to be still and quiet. We don't get those often, so we need to take advantage when we can.
[10:34] <@Zaister> hm gettign Java 9 on my machine doesn't look too easy. I'll have to look into that
[10:35] <@Zaister> Gwen that's awesome
[10:35] <Gwen> But I think hubby would be happy to do that later. He's a "super-user" so his input might be more useful than mine. (all of his gaming groups use PCGen)
[10:36] <karianna> Gwen - sorry I wasn’t thinking now :-), ping me on martijnverburg AT gmail DOT com and we can arrange a date / time that suits
[10:36] <Gwen> Sounds good!
[10:36] == rfinch [2ed0086f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.208.8.111] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[10:36] <Avilay> curious. is meeting finished?
[10:36] <karianna> And that sounds awesome (movies)
[10:36] <karianna> Avilay - I think so now yes
[10:37] <Avilay> so i can return to lurking again :)

Meeting 2018 01 13

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