Board Meeting - 2005/08/15

Attendance

Board:

CHAIR - Andrew M. - Andrew[Chair]
ADMIN - Absent
ARCH - Tom P. -Tom[Arch_SB]
CODE - Absent
CONTENT - Andrew M. - Andrew[Chair]
PR - Paul G. - [OGL]Nylanfs
DATA - Doug L. - DistantScholar
OS - Stefan R. - Zaister

Public:

Li-Aung "Lewis" - layip
David "Papa" - PapaDRB
Andrew W. - ampersandrew

Summary

PR - Gearing up for Gen Con next year. We've been approached by d20pfsrd to share a booth. Estimated cost is $1,800 to cover materials and reservations (Not including Badges).
PR - New Books cleared by license review: Path of War, Humans of Golarion and the Advanced Class Guide. Current review is Dragon Companion Handbook by Everyman's Gaming.
Data - Unchained Summoner was expedited for the PFS usage. The general PF system has it in the repo for 6.05.04 release. (PFS Implementation to follow Mark review).
Data - FACT/FACTSET system being implemented for Pathfinder Archetypes - Base Classes underway. Barbarian completely converted.
No concrete timeline for the release schedule. Pending James Dempsey's feedback.
Arch - Worked on structure to implement the upcoming Formula System and INFO/INFOVARS (which are all tied together). Plans on introducing into MASTER around September 9th.

Raw Log

[06:02] <Andrew[Chair]> Morning all
[06:02] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Hey
[06:02] <DistantScholar> Good morning (for me).
[06:03] <layip> evening.
[06:03] <Andrew[Chair]> We're missing James?
[06:06] <layip> and Anestis
[06:06] <Andrew[Chair]> Anestis and Paul notified us they would be absent.
[06:07] <Andrew[Chair]> Okay, I sent James a note. I've got seven after. Time to get this meeting underway.
[06:08] * Andrew[Chair] Bangs Gavel
[06:08] <Andrew[Chair]> Greetings and Welcome to the PCGen Board of Directors meeting, August 15th. Our agenda for today is:
[06:09] <Andrew[Chair]> 1) Team Reports
[06:09] <Andrew[Chair]> 2) Next Release, and estimated Release Schedule for 6.6
[06:09] <Andrew[Chair]> 3) Formula System / Subsystem Proposal Discussion
[06:10] <Andrew[Chair]> 4) Public Comments
[06:10] <Andrew[Chair]> Anestis reporting for Admin left this team report:
[06:11] <Andrew[Chair]> Welcome Lewis to the webteam.
[06:11] <Andrew[Chair]>
[06:11] <Andrew[Chair]> I've added Lewis as an Admin on the PCGen website so that he can start looking into moving the remaining sourceforge content. Lewis needs access to the pcgen souurceforge site but I couldn't find a way to do it (i haven't played around with the SF site except to view/copy content form it to the website). Can someone help him out there?
[06:11] *** No text to send
[06:11] <Andrew[Chair]> The Discourse forum/mailing list looks interesting, but needs further investigation.
[06:11] <Andrew[Chair]> Need to clear out pcgen_test site and import a copy of the most recent version of pcgen.org for testing purposes. This is proving to be a difficult task as there is no easy way to move everything across.(database references, etc).
[06:11] <Andrew[Chair]> I'm hoping to ramp up my involvement again now that I have a new job, but may take a few weeks.
[06:11] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I'm kinda here, just at work :)
[06:12] <@Zaister> Lewis = Li-Aun, right?
[06:12] <layip> Lewis = Li-aung Yip = layip = lws
[06:12] * layip waves
[06:12] <Andrew[Chair]> Li-aung = layip
[06:12] <@Zaister> ah sorry about the miding g :)
[06:12] <@Zaister> missing
[06:12] <layip> it's OK, I use the nickname to save white people trying to spell my name
[06:13] <layip> proceed
[06:13] <@Zaister> Ah I see :)
[06:13] <Andrew[Chair]> Paul, you able to give your report then?
[06:14] <[OGL]Nylanfs> If it gets to me and I don't repsond in a few seconds post my report.
[06:15] <Andrew[Chair]> Well, you're up. :)
[06:15] *** mizu_no_oto has quit IRC: Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.
[06:15] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Okay, since the last meeting three sets have been cleared
[06:16] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Path of War, Humans of Golarion and the ACG
[06:16] <[OGL]Nylanfs> One is in process for clearance Everyman's Dragon Companion Handbook
[06:17] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I'm going to start pushing for Gen Con booth donations
[06:17] *** PapaDRB has joined #pcgen
[06:17] <[OGL]Nylanfs> The current estimate is $1800 for a 10 x 10 booth
[06:17] <[OGL]Nylanfs> We have $500USD in the fund currently
[06:18] <[OGL]Nylanfs> And I believe we will need $700 to reserve the booth
[06:18] <[OGL]Nylanfs> There's also a possibility that we could share the booth.
[06:19] <[OGL]Nylanfs> John Reyst from d20pfsrd has approached me about sharing it
[06:19] <@Zaister> wasn’t GenCon just last week?
[06:19] <[OGL]Nylanfs> which would bump the cost up, but better coverage for the booth and more traffic
[06:20] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Yes, but last year the booth space sold out within a couple of months.
[06:20] <@Zaister> Oh that makes sense
[06:21] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I think that's it from me
[06:21] <[OGL]Nylanfs> Any questions?
[06:21] <Andrew[Chair]> Usually sharing a booth decreases the cost, first I've heard it increasing.
[06:21] <Tom[Arch_SB]> nop from me
[06:21] <Tom[Arch_SB]> *not
[06:22] <Andrew[Chair]> When do we need the money raised to make next year's deadline?
[06:22] <[OGL]Nylanfs> There's an additional cost for having two names on the booth, it's less than getting a whole booth to yourself.
[06:22] <[OGL]Nylanfs> March for the full amount I believe
[06:23] <[OGL]Nylanfs> If we can get a couple of hundred more we can cover the non-refundable deposit
[06:23] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I'm waiting on paperwork for next years booths.
[06:23] <Andrew[Chair]> Okay, that's all my questions. Thanks Paul.
[06:23] <ampersandrew> how much is the non-refundable part on a shared booth
[06:24] <ampersandrew> And how much is the other guy paying?
[06:24] <[OGL]Nylanfs> We haven't gotten to that part of the discussion yet he just approached me a couple of days ago
[06:24] <ampersandrew> you already have more than half of $700
[06:24] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I believe the amount to reserve a booth is the same
[06:25] <[OGL]Nylanfs> No the booth is $1400 (unless it has increased)
[06:25] <[OGL]Nylanfs> we would need $700 for the 50%
[06:25] <ampersandrew> $700 to reserve is what you said a minute ago
[06:25] <ampersandrew> Ah ok, you already halved it
[06:26] <[OGL]Nylanfs> And some of the extra is for booth supplies and flyers
[06:27] <[OGL]Nylanfs> I'll be covering my badge and sleeping space so all the $1800 is for the booth.
[06:28] <@Zaister> that’s not cheap
[06:28] <@Zaister> but ok
[06:29] <Andrew[Chair]> Thanks Paul. Moving on, for Content report.
[06:30] <Andrew[Chair]> Data has been a whirlwind of activity - 56 bugs / features have been resolved for the upcoming 6.05.04 release
[06:31] <Andrew[Chair]> Unchained Summoner support has been included, tested and placed into the release.
[06:32] <Andrew[Chair]> Due to backwards compatibility, I had to change how the Unchained vs. Standard works. My test 6.0 summoner didn't like upgrading using the new system. But it works nicely now.
[06:33] <Andrew[Chair]> Core Classes have been getting upgraded to the Fact System, and I'll continue to finish that now that the Unchained Summoner work is finished.
[06:33] <Andrew[Chair]> Docs - Lewis has been updating the docs for us, and has dived right in to bring the documentation up to current practices.
[06:34] <Andrew[Chair]> OS - Not much activity in the release. (Stefan, anything to add for OS?)
[06:35] <@Zaister> not at this time, I’m looking in transitioning some stuff such as the PF statblock to the new output syntax
[06:35] <Andrew[Chair]> Any questions for content?
[06:35] <Tom[Arch_SB]> A comment on OS
[06:35] <Andrew[Chair]> Go ahead Tom
[06:35] <PapaDRB> What is the current status of Mythic for Pathfinder, please
[06:35] <ampersandrew> Can we get a summary of chained/unchained and how that works posted to the list
[06:36] <Tom[Arch_SB]> as we do conversion, there are things where to have the subsystem transition the OS will need to be using Freemarker
[06:36] <Tom[Arch_SB]> So I think that means a flurry of conversion is going to be part of the plan
[06:36] <@Zaister> that is exactly what I want to test out with the PF statblock
[06:37] <Tom[Arch_SB]> ok
[06:37] <Andrew[Chair]> @PapaDRB - Mythic is released and included in the release.
[06:37] <Andrew[Chair]> @ampersandrew - Yes, I can post to the list how to make it work.
[06:37] <Tom[Arch_SB]> just making sure it's clear that some things will not be possible in the old export system, so that if OS becomes a constraint, it's not a surprise
[06:37] <@Zaister> Mythic might profit from the big expansion by Legendary Games, we should contact them for permssions
[06:38] <@Zaister> Tom[Arch_SB]: OK, I will keep that in mind
[06:38] <ampersandrew> @Andrew[Chair] thanks
[06:39] <@Zaister> ampersandrew: do you need to be explained what „Unchained“ is in General, or is that clear?
[06:39] <ampersandrew> No, I know what unchained is. I sent you the beginning of unchained Rogue, if you recall. I want to know what the new system is for it.
[06:40] <@Zaister> ah right, didn’t make the connection to your nick here
[06:40] <PapaDRB> @Andrew - Thanks
[06:40] <ampersandrew> no, I'm usually nuance, but everywhere else on the interwebs I'm ampersandrew. I'm amking the transition.;
[06:40] <@Zaister> Got it
[06:41] <Andrew[Chair]> James is absent for Code. I know we're overdue for an alpha release, and no defined release schedule to some hectic schedules. We'll post an update when I have further.
[06:41] <Andrew[Chair]> Code has been having some clean up.
[06:41] <@Zaister> should we talk about conditional visibility?
[06:41] <ampersandrew> surely that's arch
[06:42] <@Zaister> ok
[06:42] <Andrew[Chair]> Tom - Your report and then into your big formula discussion. (And anything Code you wanted to cover in James' absence).
[06:43] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Report: Really been setting up a framework
[06:43] <Tom[Arch_SB]> getting all the NEWTAG entries ready for the output changes and the formula system
[06:43] <Tom[Arch_SB]> there are something like 100
[06:44] <layip> (heaven help the documentation team!)
[06:44] <Tom[Arch_SB]> yes, that needs to be a discussion at some point
[06:45] <Tom[Arch_SB]> there are some major structures in docs that I think need to be built
[06:46] <Tom[Arch_SB]> but that's probably a discussion for another time
[06:48] <layip> agree, won't hold up the general meeting, proceed
[06:48] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Not sure I have much else on report
[06:51] <Andrew[Chair]> You wanted to discuss the Formula at the meeting?
[06:53] <Tom[Arch_SB]> I may need to beg out of an extended discussion today actually - really not feeling well
[06:54] <Andrew[Chair]> Understood. Okay, into wrap up. Any questions or comments?
[06:54] <ampersandrew> how close do you think we are to having INFO and INFOVARs that work?
[06:55] <Tom[Arch_SB]> The INFO/INFOVARS code is integrated into the formula code I'm working on. Probably targeting around Sept 9 to put into master
[06:55] <ampersandrew> okay, thanks
[06:58] <layip> commentary; documentation is going to require a lot of work going forward - the deprecation of the FEAT tag is, I think, a small thing compared to FACT/PREFACT and the upcoming formula system changes
[06:59] <Tom[Arch_SB]> agree
[06:59] <layip> in this marine's opinion, thing like the `list file class` tutorials are too far behind to be salvaged, I think less man hours to start those from scratch using all shiny new best practices
[06:59] <Tom[Arch_SB]> I will see if I still have some notes I traded with Eric on that a while back
[07:00] <[OGL]Nylanfs> the Classes were written what 6-8 years ago?
[07:00] <@Zaister> yes
[07:00] <Tom[Arch_SB]> because a lot of things become "reusable" (meaning one code changes enables in many places) we may want to consider docs that are more cross-referential
[07:00] <Andrew[Chair]> Probably. Most of them existed before I officially started 9 years ago. ;)
[07:00] <@Zaister> but changes again and again
[07:01] <layip> @Tom: I am starting to cross-reference things now, i.e. when a document talks about the "CHOOSE:SKILL" tag, I have started inserting hyperlinks to that tag
[07:01] <Tom[Arch_SB]> yea, it's a bit more than that though
[07:01] <Tom[Arch_SB]> let me give an example
[07:02] <Tom[Arch_SB]> The concept of a "format" (like number, string, etc.) is becoming shared
[07:02] <Tom[Arch_SB]> so FACT can use "Number" or "alignment" or whatever
[07:02] <Tom[Arch_SB]> as can FACTSET
[07:02] <Tom[Arch_SB]> but so will the variable system
[07:02] <Tom[Arch_SB]> So with a little bit of code, I can impact all 3 systems
[07:03] *** mizu_no_oto has joined #pcgen
[07:03] <Tom[Arch_SB]> so for the formatting, the question becomes whether it makes sense to have all the legal formats listed in each tag and updates all the tags each time one is added
[07:03] <Tom[Arch_SB]> or have a "format" page with a full page of what is legal and only update in one place
[07:04] <layip> @Tom: I am a strong believer in the DRY "Don't Repeat Yourself" principle; part of the problem with the current docs is that they are highly repetitive and need lots of effort to maintain
[07:04] <Tom[Arch_SB]> nods
[07:04] <layip> if you look at some of the recent changes, they are in the direction of "Tag Y: Works like Tag X. See documentation for Tag X."
[07:05] <layip> or, rather, "Tag Y: Works like Tag X (see Tag X), except for these particular differences"
[07:05] <layip> every line I can delete from the docs, by de-duplicating, is one less line I have to maintain
[07:06] <Andrew[Chair]> makes sense to me.
[07:07] <Tom[Arch_SB]> From a CHOOSE perspective it might make sense for you to look at some items on the wiki
[07:07] <layip> Tom, we will have to correspond in more detail about docs; there is also the substantial problem that I have to actually learn and understand all these new systems, before I can document them
[07:07] <Tom[Arch_SB]> I'll warn these are slightly outdated
[07:07] <Tom[Arch_SB]> but http://wiki.pcgen.org/Simple_CDOMObject_Proposals
[07:08] <Tom[Arch_SB]> http://wiki.pcgen.org/Unique_Primitive_CDOMObject_Proposals
[07:08] <Tom[Arch_SB]> http://wiki.pcgen.org/Qualified_CDOMObject_Proposals
[07:08] <Tom[Arch_SB]> really each summarize the tokens that have common behaviors
[07:09] <layip> right, i'll look at those
[07:09] <Tom[Arch_SB]> but it starts to get across that there is shared infrastructure (in the case of CHOOSE, they are primitives and qualifiers)
[07:09] <Tom[Arch_SB]> one more: http://wiki.pcgen.org/Complex_CDOMObject_Proposals
[07:09] <Tom[Arch_SB]> actually, here is the "root" page: http://wiki.pcgen.org/CHOOSE_Token_Proposal_for_6.0
[07:10] <Tom[Arch_SB]> all the sublinks at the bottom
[07:10] <layip> got it.
[07:10] <Andrew[Chair]> Time to close out the Board Meeting, we have the data meeting next. ;)
[07:10] <Tom[Arch_SB]> there is a description of primitives and qualifiers somewhere as well. May be a list rather than the wiki. I will find and send to you
[07:10] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Not sure I'm up for that one Andrew
[07:12] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Primitive and Qualifier thread: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/pcgen_developers/conversations/topics/3682
[07:13] <@Zaister> Is there documentation about this Boolean thing?
[07:13] <Andrew[Chair]> Well, if nothing else, I'll be able to touch base with the team and plan out some next steps.
[07:13] <Tom[Arch_SB]> which Boolean thing?
[07:13] <@Zaister> Andrew was talking about something you’re planning
[07:14] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Andrew, were you thinking it would be a variable?
[07:14] <Andrew[Chair]> That's formula system
[07:14] <Andrew[Chair]> and FACT/FACTSET
[07:14] <Tom[Arch_SB]> So the impression I got was "Can visibility be a formula value" - i.e. a local variable
[07:14] <Tom[Arch_SB]> So something like
[07:15] <ampersandrew> aren't those variant and invariant versions of the same thing
[07:15] <Tom[Arch_SB]> pretty close yes
[07:15] <Tom[Arch_SB]> LOCAL:SKILL|FLAG=Visible
[07:15] <Tom[Arch_SB]> or some such
[07:15] <Tom[Arch_SB]> I may be a tiny bit off on syntax there
[07:15] <Tom[Arch_SB]> but make it a local variable
[07:16] <Tom[Arch_SB]> Flag is
[07:16] <Tom[Arch_SB]> NAMESPACEDEF:BOOLEAN|FLAG
[07:16] <Tom[Arch_SB]> so it's a Boolean
[07:16] <Tom[Arch_SB]> so "Visible" is "Boolean"
[07:16] <@Zaister> was referring to something Andrew mentioned a few times like „we can do this or that when Tom’s Boolean is implemented“ or some such
[07:16] <Tom[Arch_SB]> This is what Andrew is referring to
[07:16] <Tom[Arch_SB]> variables in the new system aren't just numbers
[07:16] <@Zaister> ah ok
[07:16] <Tom[Arch_SB]> they can be Boolean, String, and other things
[07:17] <DistantScholar> String variables! Woo!
[07:17] <@Zaister> and they’re typed, not dynamic, right?
[07:17] <Tom[Arch_SB]> If I can get a 5 min break I can come back and we can talk about it
[07:17] <Tom[Arch_SB]> I'm feeling a bit better
[07:17] <@Zaister> yes I’d appreciate the break myself
[07:17] <ampersandrew> Indeed. It's the potential for "dice" variables that has me going Ahh.
[07:18] <Andrew[Chair]> Sure. 5 minutes all. Bangs the Gavel. *Recess*

END OF BOARD MEETING, Data Meeting followed.

Meeting 2015 08 15

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Board Meeting - 2005/08/15

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